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Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
742
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Posted - 2015.11.18 10:21:21 -
[1] - Quote
Netan MalDoran wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Netan MalDoran wrote:Might I suggest an E-Uni course in D-Scanning? Well tbh, d-scanning does have its limits. He'd be better off doing the E-Uni course in 'How to Blob". Then he'd be the 15 and not the 1. Still, I solo PvP in FW all the time and I now very rarely get blobbed, even gate camps aren't a worry.
Do you use a booster/scout? Because that's the only guaranteed way to avoid camps, and is not solo.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
742
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Posted - 2015.11.18 10:32:37 -
[2] - Quote
Most Ewar is fine because it has drawbacks and is not viable in every situation/against every fit. Tackle I don't even consider ewar and is necessary to have explosions.
ECM is broken. The chance to fail on bonused hulls is laughable. My corp regularly uses 1M ISK T1 griffins to jam out faction battleships and cruisers..they're actually better than blackbirds. Recently killed a Bhaalgorn that my CEO turned off with a griffin, wasn't even fit specifically for that faction...I think he missed 1-2 jam cycles in the 4-5 minutes it took us to burn him down.
Million ISK ship being able to consistently shut down hulls that are far more costly and skill intensive is a bit goofy.
Seriously...it's like -
"Hey we just tackled a Bhaalgorn, need some help."
"Don't worry I'm bringing a griffin."
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Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
744
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Posted - 2015.11.18 19:38:24 -
[3] - Quote
Caladan Panzureborn wrote:I think Webs in particular are pretty stupid. There should be a solid counter to them. "Not getting hit by them" is not a counter. You should be able to slot a module that would negate one web completely. There should also be a skill to train that would reduce their effectiveness by a %. I'm really surprised it's not already a thing. I guess it's one more example of how pvp combat in this game is skewed towards the aggressor. In more well developed MMOs, you would get faction or T2 AB or MWD that inlcuded a % resist to webs. In EVE, there's nothing like that. Or there is and I'm just talking out my arse. I don't claim to be an expert, just seems like common sense. PvP in this game is far from balanced.
Oversized AB fit.
If you get webbed by multiple people you chose your engagement poorly.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
744
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Posted - 2015.11.18 21:17:28 -
[4] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Most Ewar is fine because it has drawbacks and is not viable in every situation/against every fit. Tackle I don't even consider ewar and is necessary to have explosions.
ECM is broken. The chance to fail on bonused hulls is laughable. My corp regularly uses 1M ISK T1 griffins to jam out faction battleships and cruisers..they're actually better than blackbirds. Recently killed a Bhaalgorn that my CEO turned off with a griffin, wasn't even fit specifically for that faction...I think he missed 1-2 jam cycles in the 4-5 minutes it took us to burn him down.
Million ISK ship being able to consistently shut down hulls that are far more costly and skill intensive is a bit goofy.
Seriously...it's like -
"Hey we just tackled a Bhaalgorn, need some help."
"Don't worry I'm bringing a griffin."
I've seen this 'cost' argument time and time again, and it's wrong. Cost has nothing to do with anything. If a Bhaalgorn pilot odesn't know to put on an ECCM (and appropriate cheap sensor strength boosting pirate implants), it's his own fault he gets jammed and killed. Hell a Target Spectrum Breaker has saved my Machariel (I rat with a Mobile depot out just in case). That's the problem I have with all this complaining. What you are supposed to do is do everything in your own personal power to solve a problem before declaring it some kind of problem that someone else needs to fix. If your multi billion isk pirate ships are getting killed in this fashion, you should be using the counters already available, not complaining about the cheap ships used to kill you.
Cost has everything to do with it and this occasionally trotted out argument that cost is irrelevant to balance is tedious. If it were true, no one would fly anything but T1 ships. You DO get vastly enhanced function for a higher price in the case of many hulls, especially if you play to their strengths. A dirt cheap frigate should not be able to shut down a battleship permanently. The counters to ECM are bad and unworkable in a small gang setting. The guys that fly around in solo battleships, whatever you may think of them, are creating content in a way that Johnny Nullsec sitting in an anom and waiting to take his part in the weekly blob is not. Those people make EVE better. The people that undock a griffin or worse, a falcon on them every time, make it worse.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
744
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Posted - 2015.11.18 21:52:35 -
[5] - Quote
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:Valacus wrote:Vol Arm'OOO wrote:Dagnar wrote:Jamming has been one of the least fun things in this game for a long time. Sure it's great to jam someone with all the power it makes you feel that the person cannot fight for at least 20 seconds, and probably longer with successive jams. However, it is absolutely crap for the jammed person. You don't even get a chance to do some damage or even fight back. I dont understand this attitude at all. Being helpless because of jamming is no different then being helpless because you cant track that small frig that is circling your ship at a close orbit or being kitted while being damped, etc. . . Eve is all about asymmetrical combat - rock/paper/scissor - and hard counters. ECM is no different. That's not a valid comparison, because even when tracking disrupted, you can still apply drones, neuts, scrams, webs, and all of your own EWAR. When you are jammed you can't apply anything. You're flying a brick. Ofc it is - if you are damped - you may not be able to target your opponent at all, or maybe that kitting ship is so fast that it just out runs your drones - or maybe they just stay of scram/web range and plink away at you. (And btw your drones will target folk and continue working for you if you get them out before you are jammed also I think fof missiles still work and are available(?)). Eve is not balanced around solo play. There are many situations where one player is going to be totally/effectively helpless against another in solo or small grp combat. Its just the way it is. In fact, most solo and small grp actions are decided before the match even starts based upon such facts as ship fittings, ship type, skill lvls (both player and toon). ECM is no different then anything else - except that it really makes apparent the inherent nature of eve as a bastion for asymmetrical combat.
BS/BC are fit with MJD which forces enemy tackle into scram range; thus only scan res damps are relevant and even then you will eventually target them. Damps and all other forms of e-war can be dealt with at least partially without completely gimping a fit whereas one ECM hull on field renders the fight over - there's nothing you can do. Damps, tracking disruptors, neuts and tackle mods all have limitations and situations where they are less effective or ineffective; jams is just a binary question of whether they land or not that under the present system is weighted far too heavily in favor of the jamming hull. They need to be changed so that they are both a more interesting role for players to fill than warp to optimal, activate mods and cross fingers and so they have a meaningful flaw or drawback akin to other forms of ewar so that they aren't the best choice for "+1" in an N+1 scenario.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
744
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Posted - 2015.11.18 22:00:07 -
[6] - Quote
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Most Ewar is fine because it has drawbacks and is not viable in every situation/against every fit. Tackle I don't even consider ewar and is necessary to have explosions.
ECM is broken. The chance to fail on bonused hulls is laughable. My corp regularly uses 1M ISK T1 griffins to jam out faction battleships and cruisers..they're actually better than blackbirds. Recently killed a Bhaalgorn that my CEO turned off with a griffin, wasn't even fit specifically for that faction...I think he missed 1-2 jam cycles in the 4-5 minutes it took us to burn him down.
Million ISK ship being able to consistently shut down hulls that are far more costly and skill intensive is a bit goofy.
Seriously...it's like -
"Hey we just tackled a Bhaalgorn, need some help."
"Don't worry I'm bringing a griffin."
The same could be said for just about anything in eve. Why can a couple of mil isk desy take out a 6 billion isk freighter? And there are countless examples of single frigs plinking away at vastly expensive bs until they die. In truth if eve was like real life - no little frig is ever going to have a chance to solo a BS. But eve is not rl - CCP deliberately made it so that larger is not necessarily better. So it is entirely within that frame work established by CCP that a griffin can lockdown a Bhaalgorn. Ofc I suspect that if a griffin perma jams a Bhaalgorn its because of bad skills - the Bhaalgorn simply forgot to train the ecm counter skills to V or in lieu of that - forgot to fit eccm or drones - or have friends.
You need several hundred million ISK worth of destroyers and many pilots to gank a freighter, minimum; often you see mobs of attack battlecruisers used which is not an insignificant investment. Hyperdunking requires multibillion ISK asset commitment in form of bumping machariels and bowhead; the fact that those assets aren't actually at risk is another topic. A BS can easily be fit to murder frigs and shake light tackle whereas it cannot be fit to effectively counter jams without rendering it useless for it's intended purpose. You are talking about things with which you have no experience.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
744
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Posted - 2015.11.18 22:39:50 -
[7] - Quote
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Vol Arm'OOO wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Most Ewar is fine because it has drawbacks and is not viable in every situation/against every fit. Tackle I don't even consider ewar and is necessary to have explosions.
ECM is broken. The chance to fail on bonused hulls is laughable. My corp regularly uses 1M ISK T1 griffins to jam out faction battleships and cruisers..they're actually better than blackbirds. Recently killed a Bhaalgorn that my CEO turned off with a griffin, wasn't even fit specifically for that faction...I think he missed 1-2 jam cycles in the 4-5 minutes it took us to burn him down.
Million ISK ship being able to consistently shut down hulls that are far more costly and skill intensive is a bit goofy.
Seriously...it's like -
"Hey we just tackled a Bhaalgorn, need some help."
"Don't worry I'm bringing a griffin."
The same could be said for just about anything in eve. Why can a couple of mil isk desy take out a 6 billion isk freighter? And there are countless examples of single frigs plinking away at vastly expensive bs until they die. In truth if eve was like real life - no little frig is ever going to have a chance to solo a BS. But eve is not rl - CCP deliberately made it so that larger is not necessarily better. So it is entirely within that frame work established by CCP that a griffin can lockdown a Bhaalgorn. Ofc I suspect that if a griffin perma jams a Bhaalgorn its because of bad skills - the Bhaalgorn simply forgot to train the ecm counter skills to V or in lieu of that - forgot to fit eccm or drones - or have friends. You need several hundred million ISK worth of destroyers and many pilots to gank a freighter, minimum; often you see mobs of attack battlecruisers used which is not an insignificant investment. Hyperdunking requires multibillion ISK asset commitment in form of bumping machariels and bowhead; the fact that those assets aren't actually at risk is another topic. A BS can easily be fit to murder frigs and shake light tackle whereas it cannot be fit to effectively counter jams without rendering it useless for it's intended purpose. You are talking about things with which you have no experience. First off - your numbers about cost for ganking freighters is simply totally wrong. Second off - if you fit a bs to murder frigs - you basically cripple it, making it largely useless for its intended purpose. As for eccm rendering a bs useless - its one mod that you fit - which hardly renders the ship useless. But you miss the whole point - in eve you can counter anything if you know whats coming - the problem is when you get unexpected combat - which is exactly where a bs being tied down and killed by a frig occurs which is clearly functionally identical to a ship being perma jammed because they did not fit eccm or train the necessary skills. Also I should add - ecm already got nerfed to hell and back. Used to be falcons were a thing - barely see them anymore - and with good reason because all vets know to train the counter ecm skills which make being perma jammed unlikely.
Please explain to me how my numbers on ganking are wrong. The bumping Machariel alone costs over 500M.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
744
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Posted - 2015.11.19 20:35:47 -
[8] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:lmmortalist wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:lmmortalist wrote:It's easy to tell not a single person in this thread defending ECCM and fof missiles as legit counters has ever tried using either one of those against ECM being applied to themselves. This is untrue, I've done so (and target lock breakers, and ecm drones, ECM drones set to aggressive will aggress whoever is attacking you, you just can't tell them who). The real truth here is that some people would rather complain than think. Bullshit. Just like Jill explained a couple of posts later, fof missiles are broken and bugged and the ECCM offers no advantage to your ship besides countering ECM (which it does poorly, since most of the jams still land). Also ECM drones are even more broken than the ECM modules. There is simply no justifiable way a single hornet ec-300 should be able to jam a capital ship ever. A recent tournament match also comes to mind when thinking about how idiotic those drones are. The "bring more own ECM ships/logistics/remote ECCM/whatever" solution is actually a viable one. Too bad not everyone enjoys the blob approach to pvp all that much. Theres that word 'blob' before. When my ratting ship gets tackled and I use the tools EVE has to get away, I'm not 'blobbing' im usually being blobbed. If you don't want to use the tools that exist to solve this thing you think of as a problem, that's your choice. But you don't get to pretend like those tools don't exist. And now, a very appropriate video for everyone complaining about something they could counter if they gave it some thought: click for Appropriate video.
Plot twist: some people like to do more than just run away.
ECM can't be countered effectively in a small gang/solo situation. People who actually participate in that area of the game have already explained why.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
745
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Posted - 2015.11.21 14:51:54 -
[9] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Plot twist: some people like to do more than just run away.
ECM can't be countered effectively in a small gang/solo situation. People who actually participate in that area of the game have already explained why.
They (and you) are wrong. I would love to see you types sent back in time to before the ECM and Falcon nerfs. If you think EWAR is bad now, you'd have loved it back then (not). This goes to show CCP that no amount of nerfing something will ever please those who can't be bothered to think for themselves int he 1st place. It's not unlike how high sec miners claimed mining ships needed ehp buffs, got ehp buffs, and still complain lol.
CCP fixing broken or sub-optimal aspects of the game is hardly a bad thing and I don't know why I'd want to go back to a time before those changes occurred. The issues with ECCM and FoF missiles have already been covered; just stuffing your fingers in your ears and saying "you're wrong" proves nothing. If you are largely a PvE player this is a mechanic which hardly affects you and thus I'm not sure why you're concerned with it anyway.
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